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WoW: Lets do this right.
November 6th 2004, 01:25 CET by Matt Perkins

You have been informed.

Also, I prefer alliance, but to each their own and all that jazz.  (Dwarven Paladin here I come!)
Home » Topic: WoW: Lets do this right.

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#146 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 21:55:52
Well what do you want?  Should you just die then instantly spring back to life?  In my mind, it's much preferable to experience loss or experience debt or item loss or any number of traditional penalties for dying.

Maybe SWG, oddly enough, has the best approach to death.  You spawn immediately back at a cloning station and, provided you stored your clone data there and insured your items, the penalty will be pretty light.  If not, you'll incur some wounds, which are easily healed now, and if you haven't insured your items, they will take more decay than if you had insured them.

Oh, and if you die you lose any buffs you might have had prior to the death.

Apart from that, there really is no wait time to spawn and there's little to no penalty provided you plan ahead before going out to kill the big foozle.

no, No, NO!
#147 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 21:57:10
Oh, I didn't know about the penalty to the gear.  I don't understand why they are making such drastic changes to the game this close to launch.  I mean, I haven't even follwed the game at all, and I can see some of the new developments as being radically different that what was before them.

no, No, NO!
#148 by Hugin
2004-11-09 21:57:25
I assume you're responding to 144 there.
#149 by Penguinx
2004-11-09 21:57:31
Star Wars Galaxies should have had bacta tanks for all it's dead. Bleh.

Also, why not have you respawn in the graveyard good to go? Resurrected from the grave directly and all that.

Thanks to UAC, I'm busier than a ten-peckered dog in a fire-hydrant factory!
#150 by Hugin
2004-11-09 21:57:46
#151 by BobJustBob
2004-11-09 21:58:43
The only penalty for death is you have to run back to your corpse.  You spawn in a graveyard as a ghost, and in order to become corporeal again, you need to get back to your body and re-enter it.  What about that doesn't make sense?

They added a 10% weapon degradation on death. Or something like that.

Jesus, read qt3 once in a while.

#152 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 21:59:04
Because then you'd have to join the Undead class?

And I agree about the bacta tanks, sort of.  The only problem with that "it makes more sense" scenario is - who transports your broken body back to the medical center and why?

no, No, NO!
#153 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:00:16
Well dammit, I've only played the game a couple of times.  Also, I watched the "informative tutorial video" from Fileplanet which CLEARLY STATED that the only penalty for death was having to run back to your corpse.  I had no idea Blizzard would be hitting the crack pipe so heavily this close to launch!

no, No, NO!
#154 by Penguinx
2004-11-09 22:02:18
Scavengers? Good samaritans?

Cloning is so... new trilogy. Gives me the willies.

Thanks to UAC, I'm busier than a ten-peckered dog in a fire-hydrant factory!
#155 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:03:57
Good samaritans?  Clearly, you've not met any of the SWG players!

no, No, NO!
#156 by None-1a
2004-11-09 22:04:49
Jeet there could be a whole sub-set of Jawa who are dedicated to nothing but hauling corpes to medical centers. They'd of course charge a small fee for it (volume buisness after all) and if you don't pay after a few real life days send bounty hunters after your ass.
#157 by Shadarr
2004-11-09 22:04:56
Scavengers? Good samaritans?


UAC! Fuck yeah!
#158 by Jibble
2004-11-09 22:07:22
As part of the grind, you should be forced to watch as your lifeless corpse is dragged slowly to the nearest town by a droid.

#159 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:07:49
Those aren't the driods I'm looking for.  You know that!

no, No, NO!
#160 by LPMiller
2004-11-09 22:08:51
equipment degradation is also 100 percent if you are rezzed, along with a rez penalty that corresponds to a scale someone pulled out of their ass.

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#161 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:10:09
A scale?  Break out your sliderules, we're having us some fun tonight!

When will they learn?  WHEN?!

no, No, NO!
#162 by Jibble
2004-11-09 22:10:27
You know, I think I may be over RPGs.  I don't think I've played one since FFX.  I guess maybe Mario & Luigi, but that's more fun than a regular RPG.  I don't think I can deal with the grinding ever again after playing something like San Andreas.

#163 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:11:35
You mean where you have to grind for something like, say, LUNG CAPACITY before the game will let you accept a certain mission.  BLEH.

no, No, NO!
#164 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:12:17
Also, this is one of the many reasons why the Ultima series was so good.  Well, most of them anyway.  There was never a grind, just exploration, conversation, and adventure.

no, No, NO!
#165 by Jibble
2004-11-09 22:14:05
#163 UncleJeet
You mean where you have to grind for something like, say, LUNG CAPACITY before the game will let you accept a certain mission.  BLEH.

Hadn't gotten to that one yet, but since I've been doing a lot of swimming I assume I'll already have that.

#166 by Penguinx
2004-11-09 22:16:11
It was fun to upgrade my weapons to hitman status in GTA. It happened naturally and was a nice addition. Having to run to the last location of CJ's death would be maddening on the other hand.

Thanks to UAC, I'm busier than a ten-peckered dog in a fire-hydrant factory!
#167 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:39:12
Clearly you have not tackled any of Zero's missions yet.  If its frustration you fear, prepare to be terrified!

no, No, NO!
#168 by BobJustBob
2004-11-09 22:40:38
Also, this is one of the many reasons why the Ultima series was so good.  Well, most of them anyway.  There was never a grind, just exploration, conversation, and adventure.

And horrible realtime combat (at least in 7).

#169 by Jibble
2004-11-09 22:42:37
#167 UncleJeet
Clearly you have not tackled any of Zero's missions yet.  If its frustration you fear, prepare to be terrified!

Believe me, frustration means little to me.

#170 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:42:54
I bet if you'd gotten to raise a fairy, you wouldn't be bitching.

no, No, NO!
#171 by Penguinx
2004-11-09 22:45:25
Jeet, not there yet. Hopefully they aren't too maddening.

Thanks to UAC, I'm busier than a ten-peckered dog in a fire-hydrant factory!
#172 by Charles
2004-11-09 22:50:04
Because then you'd have to join the Undead class?

You know, if you thought the death penalty was dead, you'll love Blizzard's new stance that the Undead aren't actually undead.

#173 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:51:00
They are.  SWEET LORD IN HEAVEN, they are.

Well, one specifically.  You'll know it when you get to it.  It will be the mission that brings you closer to wanting to break a controller than you have ever approached in your life.  Hint: it involves a remote control biplane with one of the most horrid flight models yet seen in gaming history.  Also, a very restrictive time limit with maybe a 5% margin for error.


no, No, NO!
#174 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 22:51:39
What?!  What the FUCK has descended upon the Blizzard offices?  Clearly some supernatural force is at work.

no, No, NO!
#175 by BobJustBob
2004-11-09 22:52:42
Yeah, that one was tough. Took 3 or 4 tries.

#176 by Dethstryk
2004-11-09 23:05:38
zero's missions are optional, btw.
#177 by UncleJeet
2004-11-09 23:10:09
Nothing is optional!  Everything must be completed!

Also, for some odd reason I really enjoy the trucking missions.

no, No, NO!
#178 by Penguinx
2004-11-09 23:29:59
Jeet, me too. Those are the only side missions I've completed so far.

The first ATV mission required a few reloads, but I've been pretty repeat free otherwise. Turf Wars have killed me more than the missions.

Thanks to UAC, I'm busier than a ten-peckered dog in a fire-hydrant factory!
#179 by McBain
2004-11-09 23:56:21
I think the final blow was when I heard (via Charles) about Blizzard messing with the game's previously perfect (non punishing) death system, adding a penalty that was not only unnecessary, but which makes no logical sense.

They've made the death penalty harsher!?  Now it's online gang rape while pouring sugar in your gas tank! is the single most important website that Americans should read every day.
"The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had."
#180 by m0nty
2004-11-10 06:21:48
So the Undead in WoW have the T-virus?
#181 by gaggle
2004-11-10 06:34:48
Interesting WoW comments around.

It's a little strange to hear the negative vibe, since I'm growning more and more fond of it. And I've always loathed what I've seen of MMOGs, so.. it is truly the end of days should I end up liking the game enough to buy it.

I like the quest aspect of WoW so far.. yeah it's not the most fulfilling story ever or anything, but there's a sense of purpose, and I'm eagerly anticipating the time when I leave my start country (should be next time I play). I'm gearing up to cross The Barrens, since I have buisness to do in the mighty Orc city. From a brief earlier exposure I know The Barrens is a slice of hell if you come unprepared, but feel good to go.

re: parties
Do/did you guys join random parties or run around solo all day long? I've been in a few spontanous ones, but I can't say it adds to the fun. It's more efficient when you're clearing out a cave or whatnot, but I don't know these people I hook up with, and I don't have any interest in staying by their side any longer than neccessary. I also exit the general chat ASAP, fucking hell those guys talk a lot.

I do party with my actual friends as often as I can though, we're all using Teamspeak, and that's terrific fun. I can't seem to play the game solo for very long without becoming frustrated and bored, but having a friend to chat and cooperate with completly changes that. I wonder if Teamspeaking is common practice? I highly recommend the experience.. actually Teamspeak is marvelous for all games I guess, I'm just flat out never type-chatting again.

Anyway, even when my friend had his own quests to do, and were several levels lower than me at the time, it was still marvelous to be able to talk to him, to see he was in the same area, to see him every now and again when we crossed paths. It just solidifies the notion that I'm playing in a "real" virtual world somehow. Night and day difference in how much I enjoy the game. I definitely cannot see the long-term fun in this game if you're playing it alone. If you did that, and you didn't enjoy the game, and you have a friend you can get in on the action, and you can both use teamspeak, then that's definitely worth a try imho.

re: grind
Maybe I simply haven't leveled up high enough, but what is this grind mentioned? I've been fishing a bit, and I guess that'd be a grind if you sit there for hours. I've just done a couple of minutes here and there though. Or is it the actual hacking of monsters that has become a grind? If so, just random monsters or does this grinding include quest-objectives? I've activly seeked out the quests, and haven't really considered the action and pacing frightingly slowpaced or grind-like overall.. (though, yeah, there have been a couple of bleh quests). What's the deal here?

re: dying
About the dying-change, I didn't think it was too horrible? Before, dying basically didn't matter at all. Now it effectivly costs a bit. But the cost is negligible as long as you find your own corpse. And even if you decide not to it's not like money is all that hard to come by.. I'm not filthy rich, but each quest and the assorted animals you run into along the way seems to generate a decent income? What's the big deal here? I understand the way it was before were even more penalty-free, but provided you're not arguing it's a slippery slope to more brutal penalties I just don't see the big problem.

re: decisions
Charles, I'd reeeaally like to hear about how it used to be. If you have the time, descriptions of how it was before and the kind of poor decisions Blizzard has made would be terrific.

re: planetcrap
Jesus friggin' christ, I go play WoW for a couple of days and there's like a thousand unread posts all together. Man, it's going to take weeks to get through all of this.

To be, turn to page 73 - from choose your own adventure Hamlet
#182 by gaggle
2004-11-10 07:07:07
I'm also a little puzzled by the Undead Drama. As far as I know the change alters absolute dick when you just play the game with your friends. It only affects the Player vs. Player combat. Now, I'm sure that's a fascinating and complicated part of the game, and if you're aiming for the PvP aspect feel free to voice your opinions as loudly as possible. Should the case be that you primarily just want to smash teh monstars then I don't think there's any need for concern.

Also, I've been thinking about why I started out not liking the game at all, and then the change 'till now where I'm growing fond of it. Maybe I'll switch right back next week, I don't know.

I started my fancy Tauren Hunter yesterday I think, and she's my.. hm.. forth character I've created. More or less. A few days ago I wouldn't've thought the various race- and class-choices made all that much of difference outside the various statistics, but when I tried as an Orc.. meh.. idunno, I think they're boring. All that warrior bullshit all the time, and their environments were very depressing to be surrounded by. I posted here after playing that character, and it did not read as a positive experience. The Night Elves' environment and atmosphere is too dark for my taste, and with all their nature-bullshit I had to turn away after a couple of levels. Humans worked for me though, there's a nice range of colors in their environment, and the whole thing was just really appealing, if a little cliché. It did get a bit tiring I think, I can only take wading through so much snowcowered landscape, but I could absolutely go Human or Dwarf again. Then yesterday I tried the honorable Tauren, huge bipedal cows, and it just appealed to me much more. There are vast open plains to roam on, pretty scenery with plenty of nature and earth colors. The difference between my almost instant meh-ness of the Orcs in contrast with the appeal of the Taurens suprised me greatly.

Yeah I know it's probably odd I place so much weight on the environments and atmosphere, but.. idunno.. I think I hit the Casual Gamer Attitude fairly well here, I basically just want to enjoy myself with a couple of friends, whilest we go adventuring and quest-solving. And, as it turns out, I don't enjoy myself when all I see is red barren sand or dark mysterious forests. I guess I was pretty confused by the game the first couple of characters, so that probably affects my feelings to each environment, but I think the atmosphere plays a critical part of my fun-factor.

Then there are the classes.. again, the game started out feeling pretty dull, playing as a warrior I was just ready to give up on the game all together. The rogue left me dry as well. But my hunters (I have a Dwarven and Tauren hunter) was surprisingly interesting.

I've played one (Human) warrior up to level 13, and it just kept being.. like each encounter felt the same: Run up to enemy, hack hack, watch healthbars (feel free to point out any number of things I might've done wrong). The (Elven) rogue, though I only played one for a short time, was too much stealthy bullshit for my taste.. well, in fairness the combo system seemed interesting. But the Hunter is fun. It's nice with my friends in combat, there's a bunch of stuff I have to watch out for, and I feel pretty powerful as long as I keep my head cool. And there's my pet, which I'm just starting to learn how to best use. I can draw fire away from the aforementioned friends, split up a group of monsters, etc. And I'm useful when not combating, because I'm the one that tracks enemies and spots for danger/opportunities thanks to some new racial traits just implemented a couple days ago.

Hm, I didn't mean to describe my WoW-history in such detail. I just wanted to point out that maybe, if the game hasn't clicked for you, maybe there's a class and/or race out there for you yet?

My only regret is that I'm on server Test 3, and thus void of seeing the occasional fellow 'crapper.

To be, turn to page 73 - from choose your own adventure Hamlet
#183 by lwf
2004-11-10 08:04:56
This thread is more boring that the Joker thread.

It's a great place to meet girls!
#184 by Gunp01nt
2004-11-10 12:55:03
Gaggle is the new mcgrew.

Would you like to supersize or... BURN FOR ETERNITY?
#185 by m0nty
2004-11-10 12:59:02
mcgrew is the old and new mcgrew. None shall pass.
#186 by gaggle
2004-11-10 13:48:01
If I weren't busy enjoying the game I might've felt saddened by the lack of interest ya'll are showing. Partypoopers the lot of you.

Who's mcgrew again? Should I be flattered by the comparison? I'm guessing not so much..

To be, turn to page 73 - from choose your own adventure Hamlet
#187 by Gunp01nt
2004-11-10 14:23:29
mcgrew used to hang around here and post every once in a while. Thing is, when he posted he replied to nearly everyone before him. With lengthy replies. All in one post.

Hence, extremely long posts have become known as mcgrew posts.

Would you like to supersize or... BURN FOR ETERNITY?
#188 by Hugin
2004-11-10 16:28:52
Gaggle, I'm glad you're enjoying WoW.  The game is not one of those things where if you like it, I consider you to be insane, possibly evil.

I've complained in more or less detail, but I'll try to condense it into a short simple list:

1. I don't like the way the characters look.  Faithful as it may be to Warcraft, the way my character looks is critical to my enjoyment of an RPG type game.  The art style for characters in WoW bugs me.  I had a great deal of difficulty making a character I liked. There isn't enough customization, people's heads strike me as too small, and for whatever reason, the facial expressions all strike me as retarded or vapid.

2.  I find the quests tedious.  I finished every quest in the Night Elf newbie area, and of all of them I found perhaps 2 to be kind of fun or cute.  When I left the newbie island and got to the mainland, I found I couldn't bring myself to start the quests here.  I'd read the descriptions and just get bummed out. The idea of quests is cool, and perhaps at higher levels they get cool, but I can't get behind a game that promises to get cool eventually, after the first 10 or 15 or 20 levels.  

3. Movement is maddeningly slow.  (which plugs into what I'll say a little lower down)

4.  The mapping system is IMO, horrible.  The combination of 2, 3, and 4 together mean that I'm not only on a boring quest, I waste a lot of time simply trying to figure out where I'm going, and then more time getting there and back.

5.  The UI isn't terrible, but it does have some disappointments.  Unless I'm missing it (and it's entirely possible I just missed it) there's no way to move UI elements around.  After playing a few MMOG's that allow me a lot of UI customization, the limited options in WoW are a bit of a disappointment.

6. The game has certain minor quirks that annoy me.  They're not dealbreakers by any means, but they just bug.  For example, bags.  You start the game with a backpack, which you can hold items in.  Your ability to hold quest items, crafting ingedients, and general "phat lewt" is limited by the size of this backpack. However, you can purchase bags, which afford you additional carrying space.  This is useful.  The problem is, Blizzard has reflected the usefulness of this by making bags very expensive.  Why do I care?  Because even though I recognize the value of the things, at the end of the day, I'm paying more money for an empty cloth sack than I'm paying for an entire suit of armor.  In terms of worldbuilding logic that just irritatingly immersion breaking.

7.  I hate the crafting system.  It feels arbitrarily restrictive, and it's a tremendous money sink.  I can't turn a little profit on boring crafted items, and I can't make cool crafted items, even at a loss at all. (again, maybe it gets cooler later, but as I said earlier, I can't support games that force me to do unfun stuff for hours or days or weeks with the promise that eventually it'll be fun).

I play CoH with a regular group of friends. After running around WoW for three days, I logged into CoH just to do the regular Sunday night gig, there was no comparative agenda, just a desire to keep my appointment.  But dear lord.  CoH is so much faster and the combat is so much more interesting and the UI is so much slicker and the map is so much more useful.  Now, CoH is a much simpler game in some ways, no crafting system at all for example.  But boy, I was really floored by how much more fun I was having.

My suspicion is that WoW gets cool...sometime.  Level 20?  Level 30?  I don't know.  But levels 1-12 just didn't do it for me.  Blizzard got their shot and didn't grab me.  It may be that I'm simply not suited to enjoying EQ-style MMOG's (of which WoW is clearly simply a refinement, in that classic Blizzard "refinement not revolution" kind of way).  Dunno.
#189 by UncleJeet
2004-11-10 16:34:36
I find myself agreeing with Hugin, as usual.

no, No, NO!
#190 by ProStyle
2004-11-10 17:29:41
I hadn't even been able to get myself past the character creation page. Totally seeing where Hugin is coming from... the female variants almost seem like an after-thought. The coolest thing was the Tauren, everything else looks so silly to me - and that neon-mustached dwarve is an abomination.

Fabricated like the word absurditive
#191 by Ergo
2004-11-10 17:32:15
If you have to reach level 20 or 30 before the game gets interesting, forget it. Sounds like Everquest to me.

Mac OSX--UNIX For Girls (tm)
#192 by Charles
2004-11-10 17:42:41
High teens was when the game started to get more entertaining, for me.  Of course, I'm sure they patched that out as an 'exploit' or something.

#193 by Greg
2004-11-10 18:21:13
Hugin, unless they changed the way it worked from a few months ago, you are able to customize the UI, albeit via scripting and such.

#194 by Matt Perkins
2004-11-10 18:32:31
I completely disgree with Hugin if you take his complaints vs other MMORPGs.  I agree that a lot of the limitations he posted wouldn't cut it in a regular PC game, but vs other MMORPGs, WoW is WAY ahead in most things...

The art isn't the best ever, I'll agree.  I'll say I like the style, but after having played CoH, the character customization is very weak.

I laugh at quests being tedious...  Which other MMORPG doesn't have tedious quests?  And compared to DAOC where I have to guess everything about the quest to complete it (or more likely, look the solution up online), or CoH where ever quest is run here, kill 5 guys of this type / talk to this person, or EQ whose quests...well, I don't really call them quests.  I haven't play SWG to compare.  If you pay attention to the text of the quest, use your radar and map, both of which I like (though the radar in GW is much better), you can find every single quest I've done so far without help.

Also...  I never go out and kill for experience in WoW.  I ALWAYS have something to do.  I'm never going, "well, I could go hunt here or there...and that's about it.".  I'm always doing something.  Sure, it's often go kill x of y and come back, but at least I'm not killing infiniti of y or until I decide to stop.

And I love crafting...  know why?  Because I don't go sit somewhere and craft, for most of it.  As a Blacksmith, you have to find a forge to craft things, but other than that, I just mine as I'm adventuring... or adventure as I'm mining.  And with Alchemy (the only other crafting system I've tried), I just collect things as I'm going, make my own healing potions and I'm off.  It's part of the game, not something you stop to do.

Overall, I'm much in love with WoW.  Unless they make some really drastic changes, I'll be purchasing the full version and having much fun with it.  My wife and I are playing in the beta and having a blast.

And I agree with Charles, the higher teens are a lot more fun, because your character can do more.  And that being said, getting to higher teens doesn't really take that long in this game.  Not long at all.

"She told me to tell you to quit being such an anal-retentive pussy."- Ergo
#195 by UncleJeet
2004-11-10 18:40:50
I have yet to find the correct beasties "south of yonder tower" no matter where I look.  Bleh to it.

no, No, NO!
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