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WoW: Lets do this right.
November 6th 2004, 01:25 CET by Matt Perkins

You have been informed.


Also, I prefer alliance, but to each their own and all that jazz.  (Dwarven Paladin here I come!)
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Home » Topic: WoW: Lets do this right.

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#48 by BobJustBob
2004-11-06 18:53:38
Yeah, Jibble, after all that shit about spoilers, and me seeing it on opening night, I still got spoiled. This goddamn fucking kid, less than 10, was sitting right in front of me and yells out "That's the villian!" the first time he appears.

Dood.
#49 by McBain
2004-11-06 19:01:05
Bob-  It's because God doesn't love you.

www.dailyhowler.com is the single most important website that Americans should read every day.
"The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had."
#50 by yotsuya
2004-11-06 19:37:46
Just a friendly reminder that if you want to take part in the PC NBA league, contact jjohnsen ASAP. We're drafting tomorrow!

"By the pricking of my thumbs,
something wicked this way comes"
I wear my sunglasses at night.
#51 by jjohnsen
2004-11-06 20:54:15
http://www.johnsenclan.com
We only have two people interested Yot, I think we may have to cancel.

Actually, the liberalism of the media - as a general thing - IS a major fallacy. What the media is, is a whore.  -LP
#52 by Matt Perkins
2004-11-06 22:19:10
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
I echo the Incredibles comments.  Beautiful in everyway.

"She told me to tell you to quit being such an anal-retentive pussy."- Ergo
#53 by lwf
2004-11-06 23:27:46
jjohnsen sucks at quoting, ha

It's a great place to meet girls!
#54 by UncleJeet
2004-11-07 01:40:55
So is anybody playing WoW as the topic suggests, but the subsequent posts do not?

no, No, NO!
#55 by BobJustBob
2004-11-07 01:47:08
MMORPGs suck. Like your wife.

Dood.
#56 by Sgt Hulka
2004-11-07 01:48:17
My Mom won't let me play MMORPG's, she says they'll make me gay.

Children are the future. Thatís why they must be stopped today.
#57 by Matt Perkins
2004-11-07 01:57:23
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
Those that are playing Wow, don't bother to post about it.  It's that good.

"She told me to tell you to quit being such an anal-retentive pussy."- Ergo
#58 by hangedmanAG
2004-11-07 02:05:45
www.livejournal.com/users/hangedman_ag/
I saw the Incredibles and liked it (and I guess I'm the only person that liked the 'Boundin' short) though there were somethings I was a little uncomfortable with (it was a little too Ann Rayndian at times for my taste).  

Pixar is still batting 1.000

S'right
#59 by Matt Perkins
2004-11-07 02:07:10
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
(it was a little too Ann Rayndian at times for my taste).  

I haven't read any Ann Rayn in a while, give me examples.

"She told me to tell you to quit being such an anal-retentive pussy."- Ergo
#60 by Dethstryk
2004-11-07 02:54:41
jemartin@tcainternet.com
Ayn Rand.
#61 by Hugin
2004-11-07 03:04:08
lmccain@nber.org
Jeet, I'm still messing with WoW a bit.  Turning into a bear is fun.  I got off of the initial Night Elf island.  But I'm already kind of not very interested in the next land area, I think I'm going to hop on a ship and skip it.  I really with the minimap were better.  I waste a goodly bit of time finding things that there's no reason not to just mark on the map.  Alternatively, I'd be willing to buy a map in-game, a sort of "Welcome to the new town" guide sort of thing.
#62 by hangedmanAG
2004-11-07 04:04:42
www.livejournal.com/users/hangedman_ag/
Matt, (**some spoilers**)

The Invincibles almost comes off as an animated version of The Fountainhead, where the brilliant talents of the protaganist are hindered by "the hostility of second-hand souls".  The Invincibles are greater people forced into living the lives of ordinary citizens.  Mr Incredible, at one point, sighs, "They keep finding new ways to celebrate mediocrity."

Also, the Villain (born unextrodinary and must create artificial things to make him seem better than he is) has an evil plan to give superpowers to everybody in the world saying that we everybody becomes special, nobody will be.  The idea of leveling the playing field being the greatest sin echoes Rand's many attacks on Communism's attempt to do the same.

The movie, like Rand, argues that the worst thing the world can do is hinder the extrodinary and the anti-elitist in me bristles a bit at that.

S'right
#63 by McBain
2004-11-07 04:25:41
hangedman-  I thought about that, too.  I don't really have a problem with it, especially since the movie is meant to exist within the closed context of comic book genre conventions.  I didn't see it meant as allegory so it didn't bother me.

www.dailyhowler.com is the single most important website that Americans should read every day.
"The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had."
#64 by Hugin
2004-11-07 04:37:10
lmccain@nber.org
Yeah.  Unlike say, Hero, the undercurrents in The Incredibles didn't bug me so much, because that fascist uberman vibe is fairly inevitable in superhero comics.  In more recent work it's often been transmuted into somewhat more palatable themes related to the acceptance of diversity, the whole "mutant powers as homosexuality" thing seen in X-Men 2 for example.  And here, it's mixed in with a fairly typical (for all that it's well done) commentary on the disappointment of middle aged family obligation, the soullessness of suburban and corporate life, etc.
#65 by phyrephox
2004-11-07 04:50:07
dkasman@gmail.com http://www.d-kaz.com
Hugin,

As a serious movie watcher I'm just glad someone like you is able to pick up on fascist undertones to a film like The Incredibles, however innocuous it is.  Hopefully there are many people like you who look at conventional entertainment from an ideological angle.

That being said, I think looking at the film's vibe as "fascist" is a subtle misinterpretation of the film's themes in reference to the intended audience.  To me, the film is trying to promote self-awareness of one's own strengths and weaknesses and the image one gives to others by properly recognizing (or not) these characteristics.  Within the context of the film, self-recognition means imbracing superhuman powers, but I see that just as the film's entertainment reference point and not the overt thematic fascism of Hero.

Personally I was glad the film avoided both the superpower as "you are special" themes as well as the simple, but commendable political messages of the X-Men films.
#66 by zimbardo_ugly
2004-11-07 05:02:08
zimbardo_ugly@hotmail.com
#65 by phyrephox

As a serious movie watcher I'm just glad someone like you is able to pick up on fascist undertones


Do you mean someone who posts on PlanetCrap, or someone black?

Rot-corpse Sumatran art amuses proctor.
#67 by lwf
2004-11-07 05:13:29
A serious movie watcher?

I consider myself a serious masturbater but you don't see me bragging on PC about it. That's Joker's job. This guy is the Joker of watching movies.

It's a great place to meet girls!
#68 by Hugin
2004-11-07 05:14:11
lmccain@nber.org
Phyre, I don't think The Incredibles was fascist so much as the superhero comic genre in general has a thread of it running through it. I don't worry about it very much, because the genre mostly leavens it with a counterbalancing  high value placed on the quality of human-ness, almost every mainstream superhero longs (at least on occasion) for the opportunity to be conventionally human even as the circumstances of their lives celebrate their superiority, as opposed to Rand, who I feel is tainted with fairly disgusting levels of selfishness.  I also think Incredibles has enough depth to say a few different things at once, for example,  I don't think Violet's character arc touches on Rand-ish stuff at all.
#69 by Hugin
2004-11-07 05:14:47
lmccain@nber.org
Don't worry Zimbardo, LWF, I still love Resident Evil 2.
#70 by McBain
2004-11-07 05:36:14
I thought it was funny how for some reason the superheroes in The Incredibles didn't have professional indemnity like the police do.  ;-)

www.dailyhowler.com is the single most important website that Americans should read every day.
"The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had."
#71 by McBain
2004-11-07 05:42:45
To add to what Hugin is saying, which I agree with:  (Incredibles Spoilage)

Though the film does have the minor joke about the son using his powers for personal glory to win sporting events, the heroes in The Incredibles are not looking to use their powers for personal gain but for the greater good of humanity.  They aren't looking to make money or be famous (though that may be a convenient side benifit).  They are ultimately looking to improve the world through altruistic acts, which kind of breaks down the Rand parallels.  In fact, the movie condemns the father's desire to acquire wealth through the mid-life crisis themes, where he agrees to take the high paying hero job, buys the fancy sports car, meta-cheats on his wife (Remember the lava aesthetic during the dinner with the blonde semi-evil woman).

www.dailyhowler.com is the single most important website that Americans should read every day.
"The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had."
#72 by Sgt Hulka
2004-11-07 06:45:21
Do you know what the queers are doing to our soil?

Children are the future. Thatís why they must be stopped today.
#73 by Marsh Davies
2004-11-07 11:04:20
www.verbalchilli.com
Fertilising it. I've got five of them buried out back.

#74 by Marsh Davies
2004-11-07 11:16:37
www.verbalchilli.com
I think it's unfair to condemn Hero for being fascist: it stressed that sacrifice of the individual is often necessary for the betterment of the masses. Sounds more like communism to me...

Any way, it concerns me much more when I see those kind of tropes in contemporary, popular stories - especially those designed for kids - than it does in a mythic-epic film harking back to pre-dynastic China.

#75 by lwf
2004-11-07 11:39:06
Either way, fucking bullshit.

It's a great place to meet girls!
#76 by gaggle
2004-11-07 13:50:21
I've played WoW all of two times now. After the first session (five or so hours) I didn't like it much. I had been running around alone (my friend were all several levels higher than me), and it was dull and repetitive and the whole Orc vibe didn't really appeal to me.


Yesterday I tried again. Played for a whooping.. what.. twenty hours I think, having convinced all my friends to start over as alliance people. And it was much better. I think the whole atmosphere is just much more pleasing.. though maybe that's just 'cuz I get play a sexah female warrior. Anyway, as it turns out I'm a sucker for the party thing, I need to run around with a friend to keep the "wtf am I doing with my time?!" feeling at bay.

I got to a Night Elf city, on the far side of.. Kalimdor?.. the big Orc-infested island in any event. I was very impressed by the totally different style we suddenly wandered into. Monsters, NPCs, people, everything was just different.



And I still can't see this game being played by a newbie. At all. Unless Blizzard plans to add a lot of helptext and guideance when it goes retail it's far far too scary a world for anyone just getting acquainted with their first MMOG (imo). There are short and sparse help-bubbles spread throughout the game, and I do not think they do not do their job properly. I suggest an offline or isolated area to start in, with a solid way to introduce the concepts of talking to other players, the party system, skills, your part in the world, and what your immidiate and further-off goals should be.

What they do now is just dump you in the middle of a fucking circus, letting you sort things out as you start clicking things.

To be, turn to page 73 - from choose your own adventure Hamlet
#77 by The_Joker
2004-11-07 13:51:40
http://www.jackinworld.com
There's nothing wrong with talking about jerking off. Especially not when it's to this video.

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PENETRATOR: Rise of the Wang Cuming "When it's done".
The American government and its supporters suck cock. See Fahrenheit 9/11 and discover the truth.
#78 by phyrephox
2004-11-07 16:01:23
dkasman@gmail.com http://www.d-kaz.com
About Hero, you need to take it within the tyrannical historical context of the King of Qin.  His rule plus the actions seen in the film offer a generalized, romantacized fascist state.
#79 by Hugin
2004-11-07 16:18:31
lmccain@nber.org
Marsh, keep in mind I thought Hero was a tremendously beautiful and well acted movie and recommended people go see it.

As far as Fascist vs. Communist, part of my problem is that I feel pretty much every attempt to implement full bore communism (as opposed to merely incorporating some socialist elements into a society, which I generally approve of)  has been so broken and required so much centralized state control that the label fascist tends to apply anyway.  In Hero the Emperor went beyond arguing that individuals needed to sacrifice for the group.  He argued that individuals needed to sacrifice for the State. Broken Sword wrote "Our Land".  When sacrifice to the State and nationalistic pride are touted as the highest ideals, when the destruction of the people by a State with essentially unlimited power is touted as necessary and acceptable, when all of this is imposed centrally without consulting the populace instead of being concieved of and implemented by the populace, when the entire enterprise requires the military conquest of neighboring states...I've got to call it closer to fascist.
#80 by ProStyle
2004-11-07 16:23:42
http://prostyle.deviantart.com
Open Beta needs to come out... if it goes live Nov 23rd that's not a lot of time to check it out.

Fabricated like the word absurditive
#81 by UncleJeet
2004-11-07 17:01:45
Hugin is absolutely right about the map system in WoW.  It sucks, period.  I can handle mobs not being displayed on the minimap, but what I cannot forgive is the inability to pull up the large map, find where you're supposed to go, and mark it.  It's just a horribly lazy oversight.  If they want the exploration feel, that's fine - sell maps in the game.

The whole map thing is a symptom of a problem that's plagued games for the longest time, especially RPG's - they don't make the player's character completely new to the world.  By that, I mean the game design assumes that the character will know where the town of InsetTownNameHere is and how to get to it, but the player has no fucking clue where that is or what's around it or anything.

To overcome this, there either needs to be a design around introducing the character, and therefore the player, to the world or the game needs to supply tools to compensate, such as when you take a quest, the location you need to go to get marked automatically on your map.

no, No, NO!
#82 by Matt Perkins
2004-11-07 17:02:47
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
When I watched the Incredibles I was kinda put off that super hero powers given to everyone would be a bad thing.  I noticed that the heroes didn't agree or disagree with that part of his plan, so I don't know for sure what the message was supposed to be.  I thought at the time that the bad guy shouldn't wait until he was old, he should release the stuff now.  :)


As for the rest of it...  I don't think the under current was so much about super heroes being special, but about super heroes and some of the real life concerns they might run into.  The secret identity only works in comic books for a reason.  To truly be a superhero AND have a life on side, that'd be nigh impossible.

"She told me to tell you to quit being such an anal-retentive pussy."- Ergo
#83 by Matt Perkins
2004-11-07 17:05:28
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
The whole map thing is a symptom of a problem that's plagued games for the longest time, especially RPG's - they don't make the player's character completely new to the world.  By that, I mean the game design assumes that the character will know where the town of InsetTownNameHere is and how to get to it, but the player has no fucking clue where that is or what's around it or anything.

To overcome this, there either needs to be a design around introducing the character, and therefore the player, to the world or the game needs to supply tools to compensate, such as when you take a quest, the location you need to go to get marked automatically on your map.

Ummm...  no.  This is the first MMORPG I've played that I can find everything without asking around.  If an NPC points you to a city, they give you the direction to walk.  If they ask you look for something, they tell you what it's near or the direction to go.  With the big map, the mini map and the directions, you can always find out where to go.

Or I can at least.

"She told me to tell you to quit being such an anal-retentive pussy."- Ergo
#84 by Marsh Davies
2004-11-07 17:06:32
www.verbalchilli.com
Heh. You're totally right. I was just being jokingly facetious. All I meant was it felt like pro-China propaganda at times, rather than generically fascist... but of course, China isn't exactly pure communism, is it?

Strangely, though, I didn't feel it was particularly didactic or subversive: there wasn't any convincing consistent allegory with the current day, as some reviews had led me to believe. Its setting was so heavily stylised and mythic that its ideology became rooted in an artificial realm; the values of the characters were values that functioned only in that strange environment, and couldn't be successfully translated to the real world. In fact, its lack of 21st century logic lent it credibility as a traditional tale - and in this sense, I wouldn't want to demand revisionist ideology to be imposed on old stories. It irked me to the point of Hulk-SMASH-ing when the recent King Arthur film tried to jam in modern day conceits. Why? Are we not allowed to admit that our myths and legends were written in a time where the morality we have today didn't exist? Does the fact that the heroes of the Iliad rape and pillage without remorse make it an unspeakable story? Does everything have to be a lesson in how to be a good person? Can't we show immoral people acting immorally and succeeding without signposting everything with, "This is actually immoral! don't try this at home!"

Ah. Sorry. I mention King Arthur and off I go. The point is I felt Hero was a reasonably honest and highly successful attempt to present myth, and mythic storytelling, in an easy-to-swallow form. For the largest part, the objectionable ideologies are ones that I can believe existed in China's history, and the fact they are espoused by people portrayed as heroes is not to re-iterate those ideologies as valid today, but simply in keeping with the idealisation that mythic stories entail.

And even when the film slipped, as it were, I can't help but forgive it for being so damn beautiful. Christopher Doyle's photography makes me gay for both him and his camera. If you can be gay for a camera that is.

#85 by Marsh Davies
2004-11-07 17:15:58
www.verbalchilli.com
phyrephox -

That's a truly great site you have there.

(Though I can't believe you liked Minority Report enough to give it an A-.)

(And Young Adam only a C+!)

#86 by UncleJeet
2004-11-07 17:21:52
Ummm...  no.

Most of the NPC's do give you directions, and they are extremely helpful, but they do not point you exactly to where you need to go, which is a problem.  You are told, for example, to go to a city.  You're given directions to the city, but once there you have to wander around to find the exact spot the character is you need to speak to.  Also, you can get a mission to go kill something "south of yonder tower" and that's all the direction you get.  I wandered around "south of yonder tower" for well over an hour before I found the mob type that I needed to kill.  It was south - and west - of the tower, and very far from the tower as well, even though the NPC's dialogue stated that they were nearby.

It's just an annoying oversight in today's gaming world.  CoH, once again, does it exactly right.  You get a mission, the spot you need to go to is marked right on your map and you can run straight to it.  You still need to visit places to remove the fog of the unknown, so exploration isn't hindered.

no, No, NO!
#87 by Hugin
2004-11-07 17:41:27
lmccain@nber.org
Matt, one, I think the quality of the directions varies wildly.  On one quest I was told my target location was "somewhere below here".  Wha? (and no, ultimately the location of the place was neither south nor down the ridgeline we were standing on).

Supposedly I (my character) lives here.  And if I didn't, then the people who give me the quests do live here.  The game acknowledges the existence of maps, even renders them in a parchment style.  For the NPC's to not mark your map breaks immersion, and the inability to make the map for yourself is annoying.  There was one particularly egregious quest in the Night Elf newbie area that as far as I could tell confused everyone. I'll give them minimal credit for posting guards in the very largest cities that will tel you (again, with annoying vagueness) where certain things are, but still.  WoW isn't the only offender here, I'm sick unto death of RTS games that act as if you're fighting a major war on terrain you've apparently never seen before.

Exploration is fun, but the fun is in seeing new environmental things (which would still happen even if the maps were useful), and in discovering secrets.  The location of major lakes, rivers, settlements, it's not clever or adventurous to "discover" them.  Now, if I get to the known location and poke my way down under the roots of some tree aand eventually discover something actually quirky and secret, that's one thing.  But if the mission is "Go to the famous Big Doggone Tree, go into the caves under it's roots and rescue my daughter who gets lost down there every week", then dagnabbit, mark my map.
#88 by UncleJeet
2004-11-07 17:44:37
The blend of the design assuming your character lives and knows the area, with the imposed limits on mapping for the sake of exploration and discovery just doesn't make sense together.  Either your character knows the land, in which case he should have maps, or he doesn't, in which case he should get places marked on his map for him.

no, No, NO!
#89 by Hugin
2004-11-07 17:47:31
lmccain@nber.org
Can you imagine in the real world?  "Hi, Len, I need you to take this package to our office in New York, it's very important!"  "Oh.  Well, I've never been to the Chicago office.  Actually I've never been to Chicago. Can you give me a map or some detailed directios for when I get there?"  "Well, Chicago is er...west of here...and the office is..well, it's in Chicago!  Somewhere.  Just wander around a bit, you'll find it eventually, and in the meantime you'll discover so much about the rest of the city!"
#90 by Hugin
2004-11-07 17:48:20
lmccain@nber.org
Office in Chicago, rather.  I know New York like the back of my hand.  Yeah. :p
#91 by gaggle
2004-11-07 18:48:26
The guards in the cities marks both minimaps and overview map when you ask for directions. They totally have the system in place, why NPCs out in the real world (.. the uh.. virtual real world.. hm) does not is pretty damn annoying at times. If they don't want to give away the exact location, fair enough, I could live with a big X marking the rough spot.

When you've completed a quest, the person you need to talk to is also marked on the minimap.. at least sometimes. It's just nice when it happens, walking around the same three buildings desperatly looking for that one guy that stands inside a little shed is not fun at all.

I do like the overview exploration part. I think of it as XP and the uncovered piece on the map is because you've now seen it in person. You've been there, you can now tell others of that magnificent tree by Loch Mohan, and how the sunset perfectly twinkled blah blah blah. Yeah I guess it doesn't really[/i make sense that you can't see it on the overview map, but eeeeh, so far it hasn't annoyed me. It gives a sense of wondering what's beyond that next hill (well.. sort of, the minimap is always up-to-date after all).

To be, turn to page 73 - from choose your own adventure Hamlet
#92 by gaggle
2004-11-07 18:48:47
cursed tags!

To be, turn to page 73 - from choose your own adventure Hamlet
#93 by Eyegore
2004-11-07 23:27:32
http://home.cfl.rr.com/eyegore/gallery.htm
Gaggle, maybe the town guards marked your map because you play a pretty girl you homo.
#94 by phyrephox
2004-11-07 23:39:28
dkasman@gmail.com http://www.d-kaz.com
That's a truly great site you have there.

(Though I can't believe you liked Minority Report enough to give it an A-.)

(And Young Adam only a C+!)


Thanks man, I put a lot of effort into it.  As for Minority Report, I'm a sucker for very intelligent genre pictures (which is why I think Collateral and Spartan are two of the best films of 2004).  I guess it would be ironic then that a noir-riff like Young Adam didn't do it for me, but I felt the plot was too much of a re-tread of past pictures, so I gave it high marks for its beautiful aesthetic rather than for narrative and thematic reasons.
#95 by Gunp01nt
2004-11-07 23:41:37
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Eyegore:
Gaggle, maybe the town guards marked your map because you play a pretty girl you homo.


I dunno what's gayer, playing as a female alter ego so you can hit on guys, or playing as a guy so you can stare at his ass all the time while playing.*

(* provided it's 3rd person)

I've had a few dreams where Danny Glover has made a cameo appearance -always in the oddest capacities. Like, for instance, the other night Elvis Costello, Danny Glover, and my best friend from childhood were holding a jam session on an apartment building fire escape. Odd.
 -PenguinX
#96 by Dethstryk
2004-11-08 03:45:11
jemartin@tcainternet.com
Alright, a quick, mainly legal, question.

Because of the position I'm in, I'm going to focus on compiling a solo CD of my work, instead of trying to find competent musicians to play with around here.

I plan on using stuff from an abandoned project of mine, where one other person contributed a bit too. (Some lyrics, and one "noise" track.) Nothing was ever in paper between this person and myself. Can I get away with using his contributions to that project if I credit him properly?
#97 by yotsuya
2004-11-08 03:46:54
Probably not without his permission, but I'm not a lawyer.

"By the pricking of my thumbs,
something wicked this way comes"
I wear my sunglasses at night.
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